6/17 - Am I the only one with issues?

[CharlieSummers]

I am a non-tech and would be every so grateful if one of you could explain to me in simple terms why it is no longer been possible to record Sirius/xm by using the streaming capture option for ReplayAV or a 3rd party tuner.

There are two issues; technical and legal. IMNAL, so I don't guarantee accuracy of the legal issues.

All of the recording methods were based on the original streaming system which was separate for Sirius and XM; back in the beginning of this year, SiriusXM merged their streams into a single unified player (which is pretty universally despised, since it's ugly and difficult to use). This player is Flash-based; it's important to remember that, since Adobe, owners of Flash, come into this.

The other third-party players (XM Tuner, SiriusXMStreamer, even Replay A/V) continued to use the "legacy" streams, and all was still right with the world. Then SiriusXM did a channel realignment, and all hades broke loose...the legacy streams were not updated (which makes sense if you think about it from a business standpoint), so many people lost the ability to record their favorite channels; XM subscribers lost considerably more channels than Sirius subscribers did on the legacy streams. But still, the un-added channels continued to play on both, and we continued to find ways around using them.

Until yesterday. It seems SiriusXM pulled the plug on the legacy streams, and the music stopped.

"But wait," you say, "why not use the new streams?" There are two problems with using the new streams...the technical issue is they are mildly encrypted, and before the streams would be accessible, the streams would need to be unencrypted. Which could be done.

But legally...it can't. If you do a web search on "Applian and Adobe," you will find information about a lawsuit filed by Adobe against Applian for decrypting a flash stream. Applian was forced to remove that ability from their product, thanks to the DMCA and other laws passed by the congresscritters who are firmly in the pockets of the entertainment industry.

So while it would be possible to surmount the technical issues, no one in their right mind would make public an application to do so, since it would put them squarely in the cross-hairs of Adobe's legal team.

As long as I can authenticate my right to receive the stream

You may receive it, but it is a violation of your terms-of-service (the Customer Agreement) to record the stream. No, I'm not kidding, you can read it yourself online, paying close attention to section 4.

[JaneL]

So while it would be possible to surmount the technical issues, no one in their right mind would make public an application to do so, since it would put them squarely in the cross-hairs of Adobe's legal team.

Thank you, Charlie. I now understand and assume that legacy streams were not encrypted.

You are correct about the legal issues (from my vantage point as a lawyer), though I think this is more due to RIAA's concerns than it is to Adobe. While I do understand that Sirius/XM has rights issues with their service and not much clout against RIAA, I object to the fact that the industry is doing what it can to eliminate fair use, a right that is enshrined in copyright laws. I want to record Sirius/XM solely in order to time shift. The supreme court has previously considered time shifting to be fair use. In my mind, it should be against public policy for any industry to use contractual means or market power to eliminate fair use rights. This issue is not limited to music, as you know. Whether courts will ultimately agree remains to be seen. End of rant.

[CharlieSummers]

Thank you, Charlie. I now understand and assume that legacy streams were not encrypted.

Yup, straight ASX streams.

You are correct about the legal issues (from my vantage point as a lawyer), though I think this is more due to RIAA's concerns than it is to Adobe.

The RIAA is certainly responsible for section 4 of the Customer Agreement, which as a byproduct makes it a civil violation to record my own daughter should she call the Absolutely Mindy Show on Kids Place Live (and really, how bloody stupid is that?), but it's Adobe that wants to protect the easily-broken encryption of its flash streams by law instead of technology. If they don't, they can't sell it to content providers like SirisuXM as, "safe." It was Adobe who came down on top of Applian when they released a version of their recording software that blew flash streams wide open, not the RIAA, and it wasn't dependent on music. Adobe needs to hammer anyone who threatens to make the streams available, since the technology is so...transparent.

I object to the fact that the industry is doing what it can to eliminate fair use, a right that is enshrined in copyright laws.

Um, you're preaching to the choir now. The DMCA went a long way toward eliminating fair use, and only the unusual common sense of some judges reigned it in at all (I'm thinking of the bogus encryption added to ink cartridge chips in an attempt to "copyright" the brand of ink one could use in one's own printer).

The supreme court has previously considered time shifting to be fair use.

Um, you really want to revisit the Sony case with today's Supreme Court? I have a hunch it wouldn't be decided in exactly the same way...

In my mind, it should be against public policy for any industry to use contractual means or market power to eliminate fair use rights. This issue is not limited to music, as you know. Whether courts will ultimately agree remains to be seen. End of rant.

I'll take it a step farther. I admit to violating section four every weekday morning, for my own benefit and my own benefit only. If SiriusXM wishes to cancel my accounts for something that stupid, they are welcomed to do so. But I have recorded every The Bob Edwards Show since its premiere in 2004, and so long as I have an account I have no intention to do otherwise. I don't care if I have to string two computers together with spit and bailing wire to do so, I will.

My guess is they don't care one whit.

P.S. Speaking of idiotic DRM (Digital Rights Management), today my wife went to a website that sells sewing patterns. They had some available for free, so she "purchased" them. They require the installation of plug-in software from FileOpen to print the patterns. Within ten minutes on a virtual computer (so I could avoid installing that ugly DRM to my "real" one) I had worked out a system to legally generate unprotected PDF files from the patterns which can be moved from computer to computer, and printed multiple times. (IANAL, but I am confident it is legal because I didn't violate either the spirit nor the letter of the DMCA. I didn't decrypt the data, FileOpen did.)

So not only is DRM software a pain in the arse for law-abiding customers preventing them from using the information the way they choose, it's also, in practically every case, pretty useless too.

[JaneL]

Well, you are right about the potential dangers of revisiting Sony v Betamax. The majority of the Sup. Ct. is beholden to corporate interests and has forgotten about the public interest. But, of course, that is true about Congress too. The amusing thing about Sony, as a number of commentators have pointed out, is that the decision actually saved Hollywood's bacon because it opened up a very lucrative home-video market that Hollywood studios hadn't really carefully considered. This illustrates the dangers of stymying invention for short term gain. The stymying may end up biting you in the backside.

All this Adobe, SiriusXM, RIAA effort to stop stream capturing is doomed to fail. Some enterprising person with access to a server in an off-shore haven will figure out that there is pent-up demand and money to be made by cracking the DRM and writing another stream capture program for Sirius/XM subscribers. But more importantly, Adobe and the music/ talk show content providers will have lost a great opportunity by their short sighted effort to dictate distribution and usage. Many people, myself included, would be quite happy to pay a premium for a subscription service that would make Sirius/XM type online content available on demand. Rather than meet the market demand, the industry prefers to turn us into supposed copyright infringers. So be it.

As far as your recording of Bob Edwards is concerned, my guess is that neither Adobe nor SiriusXM wants to start suing subscribers. That would be not only a public relations disaster but it would provide scope for the fair use and public interest arguments to be tested.

Re the sewing pattern. Sorry, but your ingenious work-around is probably secondary infringement. But I wouldn't let that keep you up at night.

[jtschinkel]

=JaneL;25516]Many people, myself included, would be quite happy to pay a premium for a subscription service that would make Sirius/XM type online content available on demand. Rather than meet the market demand, the industry prefers to turn us into supposed copyright infringers. So be it.

I have a cable service with a DVR that I PAY for so that I can watch a TV show when I have the time. I just want to do the same with SiriusXM that I PAY for.

[CharlieSummers]

Re the sewing pattern. Sorry, but your ingenious work-around is probably secondary infringement. But I wouldn't let that keep you up at night.

He, he, trust me, it doesn't. But I'm not sure I buy it, even if I am severely outclassed in any legal discussion. Fair Use allows me to use something I purchased (not licensed, which seemed odd on this particular website) for the purpose for which it was sold, with a little proscribed wiggle-room. Copyright law allows me to make a single backup copy of anything digital that I purchase. What stops most legal DVD backup copying, for example, is the requirement that the encryption be broken, which is a violation of the DMCA. (Yes, I know it's easily done with freely available software, but doable and legal ain't the same thing.)

But I didn't break the encryption. I used no cracking software. In fact, I used all of the software required and provided to me exactly as it was meant to be used. That it was possible to easily capture the data after the FileOpen plug-in decrypted it (something that shocked the heck out of me) is no different than recording encrypted audio after it has been converted to analog (the "Capture by Recording Audio Output" method of Replay A/V, for example); once the licensed player (say, flash) decrypts the data, the result becomes fair game so far as the DMCA is concerned. So at this point so long as I don't violate any other stricture of copyright, I can't see how I can be accused of infringement.

But I'm pretty sure I'd be ok with it if I were... ;)

[dinohall]

I was wondering if anyone knew about the XM radio XMp3i? It says you can record sirius/xm and store up to 100 hours. Does anyone have or know any info on the device? I am thinking for 150 bucks it may be worth it to record what I want.

[beavis6953]

Peace and Love. Peace and Love.

Alright well it is apparent that the well has run dry and no one can record the online streams anymore with the current setup (xmtuner). So just like all the other times, what other options / workarounds can we use to record our favorite shows?

[codgus]

Looks like the only option is a direct recording from the speakers, which Applian R/V still does wonderfully.

I only use SiriusXM at this point for content shows. If you're looking for music and have a smart phone/computer, see Pandora, I Heart Radio, Pocket Tunes, & TuneIn Radio to name just a few of the MANY FREE radio content providers.

In 2012, content providers will be moving to PodCasts, and all this silliness will be obsolete. Providing content and then later for download will be the preferred delivery because of speed and ease of use, plain and simple.

It was a good run ya'll; light speed!

[bluespire]

In 2012, content providers will be moving to PodCasts, and all this silliness will be obsolete. Providing content and then later for download will be the preferred delivery because of speed and ease of use, plain and simple.

Source? I'm doubtful, especially when it comes to studios owned by corps like S/XM. It's 2011. Podcasting has been out since the iPod came out October 23, 2001. That was 10 years ago. IT is the fastest growing segment of technology, and yet not everyone is doing, yet.